Problem Solving Discussion: Listeners who sound robotic in chats
Hey Everyone,
Yesterday, we had a great discussion in my office. There were so many friends, members and listeners there. I loved it and I am excited to host another discussion soon (stay tuned for the invite!)
We did some problem solving. It was awesome. Check out the transcript from this log here.
Earlier this week, I made a post on problem solving. We always do problem solving discussions on the admin team. We work together to help each other solve problems. When we work together, our ideas on how to solve those problems are richer.
So I wanted to bring one of the topics from the meeting today into the forum and continue the conversation here. I want you to feel safe. Join in, post a reply, lurk... all are welcome to join in. We only ask that you reply in a professional, clear and thoughtful manner and tone.
1. The problem we are going to be discussing - Sometimes listeners sound robotic when they chat with members
2. Here are some of the goals we hope to accomplish in addressing this problem:
Goal 1: Listeners use language that is unique to them personally.
Goal 2: Listeners are kind and empathetic no matter the topic
Gaol 3: Members know how to file a report, review, block when a listener is not acting appropriately to them
What other goals do we hope to achieve in solving this problem?
3. These are some potential solution to the problem so far:
Solution 1: Provide more training to listeners on how to be empathetic
Solution 2: Make it easier for personal request topics to be known to the listener
Solution 3: Allow for chats to be double topic tagged
Solution 4: Better train members on how to manage difficult situations with listeners
What other possible solutions can we come up with to solve this problem?
---------> Before we can get to trying out a solution. I'd like to invite you all to think this through together. The more solutions the better. You can copy & paste the following template to get start!
Problem: (Outline the problem described above in your own words)
Goals: (Add any goals you hope we can achieve in solving this problem)
Solutions: (Share as many as you can come up with. Get creative!)
Once we have a good handle on tihs, we can dive in and figure out some action items, test a few solutions and get the ball rolling!
@Laura
Problem: I think I see the problem differently. I do think we have problems with some listeners coming across as robotic. That being said, I think the problem lies with us trying to help people who are not "natural" listeners to become good listeners, that we give them a lot of tools but don't remind them that they are still them. They still have a personality. And each listener can have their own style of listening so long as they are engaging in the active listening guidelines.
Goals: Make listeners less robotic? Haha. No, I think a goal is to help make sure that a listener's personality and style are displayed in the way they take chats (so long as it's appropriate). This helps to improve empathy, warmth, and overall connection with members/guests.
Solutions: Add reminders in guidelines and training materials that it's okay to be yourself in a chat--your personality does not have to get shoved aside. You can follow the guidelines while still being you!! @Teagan @Cory @Erica @JimmyRustles @AffyAvo @Sadness202 @Amy @ItsE @Say10 @Hope
@Amelia
I agree with you 100% every word of it....
I have lost count of how many times members have said to me, " thank goodness you aren't robotic ".
When am talking to fellow listeners after a mock chat or in a quality mentoring session I always share what works best for me as a listener ( been here since May 2015 ) is listening from the heart, connecting to members as someone my own and above all no topic that they want to talk about is trivial for me ever.
You can't even imagine the huge variety of topics I have listened to and handled .... lice....a tense expectant father pacing the hospital, so on and so forth.
The journey has been so fulfilling and meaningful that it has guided me to paths in my life I had never even visualized.
I conclude by saying listening is an Art !!! the rest I am sure we can draw our conclusion.....
I think we just need to give time to new listeners to assimilate the content of training, which is all theoric. It's normal to sounds robotic when we try to apply the theory for the first time in chats. Those listeners are trying to handle their first chats and apply what they learned, they copy a bit from trainings in begining. I don't think it's a so bad thing. It shows that they are learning. They try to use active listening skills instead to bring their personal view or opinions. For me it's a very good sign. I don't think it's a so huge problem, they learn pretty fast and sounds better robotic over time. Change the training would not affect so much, those who sound "robotic" are those who followed it in a good way and are now trying to apply it in a normal context of conversation. Any theory content needs some time before to be able to apply it with perfection. over time, they will be comfortable to apply the active listening skills and still being themselves. they will find balance, if we give them the time and the chance to.
@vivelespatates I think this is really common. There are some new listeners who are really good at not coming across as robotic, but some may have a form of training elsewhere and it may just be a bit of a natural ability as well. I have also come across new listeners who start off robotic, but as the conversation progresses they relax into the conversation.
I don't think the goal of new listeners being less robotic is reasonable unless there's more training with actual people.
I think the problem with robotic listeners is the frequency that one comes across them along with more problematic listeners. If I had multiple good chats and then one robotic one - I would be ok with that. After connecting with 5 listeners who are completely unhelpful (are insulting, push horrible advice, or all their responses are words like hmmm, ok, etc) I'm haven't gotten any support for the issue I'm facing AND I'm frustrated with the listener quality and then to get a robotic listener my patience isn't there for the conversation to relax into something that feels more natural.
I think a solution to this is to have more experienced listeners, especially those who take GRs.
Increasing retention rates of active listeners would help with this - not sure of things to help achieve that.
Another issue is the number of chats new listeners take. Go take a look at the list of listeners - those taking more than 3 chats at a time are rarely experienced. I've had bad chats and took a peak seen those particular listeners having 5+ chats at the same time. Even if the number of active experienced listeners and new listeners taking GRs were the same if the new listeners are taking more chats that ratio is skewed to the new listeners.
I think new listeners need to be limited in the chats they can take - I would say to even limit this to 1. If some people think that can do more than that's great - they can do so after having some 1-1s. It's not necessary for them to start off taking multiple 1-1s at a time.
@AffyAvo
These are some really great suggestions!
@AffyAvo
Increasing retention would be a great goal for sure. A goal in itself, yes..
and I agree about limiting the number of chats that a listener can take simultaneously
@vivelespatates I agree, I think a good retention rate is vital to keeping the general quality of listeners high. I wonder if there are non-monetary incentives that would motivate people to stay, like being able to list this as volunteer work on a resume, or training toward becoming a counselor etc?
@MaggieQuixote you mean like those posts?
How 7 Cups can be an asset to your professional career?
Adding listener on your resume/cv
and the "Certification" program? On the page "Training & Certification" under the tab "Certification"
@vivelespatates absolutely! I didn't know about the first, but I think publicizing that would help.
With regard to certification, I'm not a fan of what hey have listed there. Aside from the certification levels sounding kind of silly, they require you to refer a good deal of people to the non-free elements of this site and I would rather suggest people go through their insurance if they can becusse it's so much cheaper. I'm a listener, not a salesperson; they already do a lot to push the pricey therapy option. (Unless I'm misunderstanding what they mean by referrals? They don't provide clarification)
@MaggieQuixote
I agree that the certification levels don't sounds very serious to put on a resume or show in job interview, etc. Maybe we could create a forum thread about renaming them and maybe update the criterias too ?
There is nothing about sending people to therapy as requierement for the certification levels, the referal clicks are about the link in your dashboard (on https://www.7cups.com/listener/ ) You have to share this link on other sites and/or social medias, for getting referal click.This link direct on the main page of 7cups (not the paid services) and they can use the site for free. its about advertissing for 7cups in general.
@vivelespatates ahhhh okay! I looked but couldn't find any language about that. The only other place I've seen "refer" used was for the therapy service. Thank you so much for clearing this up (for me, probably everyone else already knew this! Lol).
Yes, unfortunately the term "refer" is used at 7 Cups to mean different things at different times. The (unofficial) 7 Cups Glossary gives three meanings.
@MaggieQuixote
@Laura
Hi very much agree with the fact that listeners whilst learning and trying to develop their listening skills can come across as robotic. Listening is a skill, and can take time and practice to learn this. Saying that though, we already have coaching e-mails etc for trying to improve things such as empathy in chats, and mentors and mock chats can be a fantastic way to brush up on our listening skills.
One thing about this post that caught my attention was Solution 3: Allow for chats to be double topic tagged . This would be helpful as not all chats fit into one category. Also would it be possible to put a few more selections in, sometimes it can be difficult for the member/guest to put their reason for coming to 7cups into the categories stated. Maybe a general mental health selection or an ability to sub select in a topic like LGBTQ+ which covers a lot of areas? It may it less frustrating for members in general request queue as more specified topics would mean greater chance of finding a listener who feels they are strong topics for them, all about getting the correct support for our members.
I'd like to add another thing:
Problem: A lot of listeners don't know when or how to properly end a chat. Often they use the block button as a means to a quick escape and suddenly leave the person hanging, or, inversely, drag the robotic, choppy, ingenuine conversation on for a long time to the point where no one is getting anything out of it but it keeps going just to be polite or whatever. It just kinda wastes everyone's time.
Goal 4: Listeners know when, and how, to let go of a chat
Solution: Have a new round of training for listeners (mandatory or else no one will be bothered to do it) that includes teaching them ways to politely end a chat (saying things like "I'm sorry but I don't feel comfortable/experienced with this topic, but here are some other listeners who may be a better match!" instead of blocking in the middle of a chat with no problems, or dragging it on like a chore)
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On a separate note and kinda like what others have kinda said...adding more, much more topics would be very helpful in not wasting everyone's time (bc right now it's often down to choosing the closest fitting topic which could be way off or being put in general and have an even less chance of getting the right listener). You could have subcategory options so people can choose a specific topic (ie, health anxiety, social anxiety...) or a more general one (anxiety).
(Incomplete of course) examples of categories people could choose from when looking for a listener:
Anxiety (<--General category)
Social Anxiety (<--Subcategory)
Health Anxiety
Test Anxiety
LGBTQ+
Sexuality
Gender/Trans
Coming Out
Relationships
Breakups
Relationship Stress
Relationship Skills
@Phthalo before to add so many subcategories, it would needed already to add many ones that are not covered at all. but then it would be impossible to list all the topics possible in every different wording and version. i dont really see how it would be possible, other than maybe putting a keyword
also we have a lot of resources for listeners, including forum posts, listener discussions, questions answered in the listener rooms and mentors for teaching to listener how end a chat, and its also part of the initial training i think.
@vivelespatates It sounds like you're trying to say there's no problem and I'm sorry but I have to disagree
@Phthalo I'm not saying there is no problem. but totally the inverse. there are so many problems possible that we could never have a full list to pick from, including everything...
@Phthalo I like the idea of subcatories!
I think a fill in the blank option is also something that could be explored.
@Laura @Amelia @RideaRainbow
I agree with the point you made.
Problem: I do think we have problem but it arises quite often when one is taking multiple chats simultaneously. Because even to empathize, quickly respond, stay professional, being helpful to every member, a listener needs couple of minutes to process, comprehend, validate and reflect the information. But, when one taking multiple chats, the process time reduces from what reaonably needed and due to this listener ends up being robotic. I personally spoke with few listeners on 1-1 basis and then I'm bringing this point here.
Goal: I firmly believe listeners are empathetic, professional and helpful. They took this role only after they were sure that they could actually do this. So, I believe the goal can be to make sure that they keep the count of chats limited to 2-3 at a time. Not more than that. It would allow them to be empathetic, professional, helpful and less robotic!
Solution: Add tips (take only 2-3 chats at a time) in guidelines, rules, training materials and deal the things in their way. Own way! And, we can create a forum post to know how they handled a chat. If such post aready exist, then we can make it featured one so that all listeners can find it easily and share their perspectives. Even if you're a Sage or Epitome, then also one can't handle more than 4-5 chats at a time. So, it is necessary to put a strong suggestion to limit the chats to take at a time.
As RideaRainbow mentioned, "Listening is an Art!" Let allow every listener to figure out and build their way to develop and improve this art. Let them conclude things in their way.
@ASilentObserver
Agree there should be fewer chats allowed simultaneously with same listener! I think even 3 is too much, especially for new listeners. New listeners should take only one chat at a time until they have more experience and some positive reviews.
@intelligentWest1942 Yep, you're right!
I definitely feel that I sound robotic! I'm trying to err on the side of being more professional as opposed to casual. But reading this thread has showed me how that can be discouraging to new members.
@Winnie35
That's awesome that you've already learned from this thread :)
Problem: In the transcript the original problem was that some listeners sound like they're copying and pasting statements.
In another recent thread, Listeners Just Don't Understand, the problem is described as "listeners who just want to fix the issues or try to give advice and try to send me on my way".
It seems to me that this is the inevitable result when listeners are rated on helpfulness and professionalism, and are trained on canned solutions for various categories of problem.
Goals: 1) Change the culture of helpfulness in which some listeners feel they must base their listening on expert knowledge of a problem category. Move towards a culture of friendliness in which listeners base their listening on authenticity and humanity.
2) Change the culture of professionalism in which listeners focus on problems. Move towards a culture of respect and warmth in which listeners focus on people's feelings and relationships.
Solution: 1) Remove the listeners' star rating for helpfulness. Replace it with a star rating for friendliness.
2) Remove the listeners' star rating for professionalism. Replace it with a star rating for respect.
3) Remove the problem categories from listeners' profiles.
4) Remove the problem categories from general requests.
5) At the start of every 1-to-1 chat, remind guests, members and listeners that listeners are not experts and do not solve problems.
6) Move the training materials that promote canned solutions into the communities, to make it clear that they are not relevant to 1-to-1 chats.
7) Remove the listener badges that relate to being trained in canned solutions. (If possible, transfer the badges to the listeners' member accounts.)
8) Require that listeners who want to give advice or suggest solutions to problems in the forums do it from their member accounts, so that listeners are never seen to be handing out canned solutions.
9) Rewrite the initial listener training to reflect the new culture.
@Laura Really, happy to see an intiative has been taken regarding this problem.
Hi all
I am not sure if this was the right thing to do, but I will share my experience of a xo conversation this week. I felt that it wasn't going well: I wasn't particularly comfortable with the topic; I couldn't think of what to say; I felt robotic in my responses, relying a lot upon open questions. My member got a bit cross with me at points.
He was talking about the stress of teaching and looking for work. I asked him if he minded me sharing something personal about myself and then told him that I had actually been a teacher and had left the profession for good only two days before. After that we focused back on him again but the conversation flowed much better and he knew I understood the issues he was facing. We compared teaching in our different countries and he found he had more answers to his worries.
I know we are encouraged not to share personal information, but on this occasion I found it made me more human and our conversation flowed much better afterwards because it was genuine and authentic.
Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience.
@RainbowNinja17 Couldn't agree more! I try to be professional, but at the end of the day, I'm simply not. The best I can do is being as respectful as I can be. Of course sometimes I can stay professional when talking to someone, but like in the case you mentioned, the best thing to do could be to humanize yourself so the other person can trust and relate to you more. And, of course, bringing the focus back to them instead of sharing too much :)
@RainbowNinja17
I really do think "professional" is completely the wrong word. Let's start with the fact that this is not "professional" listening! It's people being with people: peer listening. That to begin with is completely different.
The best listeners I've had on here have talked bits about themselves and seemed genuinely interested in what I was saying.
Could we not replace the word "professional" with respectful, genuine, present, empathic, appropriate/positive (no smack talk), etc?
@RainbowNinja17 I really like that approach. I have a long term listener and a therapist. The best conversatons I have had are when things get personal. For example I get sick from my anxiety. Never met anyone that has. My therapist revealed that she does as well. This brought me to a whole new level because I felt understood for once. I have gotten tips that I can use because they relate to me. Keep up that style is my advice! :)
Something that really gets me worked up is the fact that the listeners aren't actively engaged. Half the time I wonder if they're watching a movie while talking to me because they hardly say anything at all, and when I looked for support this one time my listener said, "I can't solve your problems for you." How rude, I never asked them to solve my issues! I just wanted a supportive loving ear!!
