Your experience with having multiple PDs?
Hello, everyone. I am diagnosed with OCPD and BPD, and I am in the process of seeking a diagnosis for StPD.
I wanted to hear your experiences on how your personality disorders interact with each other.
I haven't noticed any outstanding effects between my OCPD and BPD, but I have noticed that my BPD and possible StPD exacerbate each other.
I am extremely dependent on my loved ones while being very distrustful of them. For example, I constantly split on my friends for not supporting me emotionally, yet when they offer to do so, I immediately close up. Splitting also worsens my paranoia — even though I've known my friends for over a decade or almost a decade, I still doubt they actually care about me and secretly despise me, only keeping me around because they are using me.
It also goes the other way. My constant isolation creates a rift between my friends. I feel like I contribute strongly to the reasons why I split on them in the first place — after all, if you don't ask people for help, or refuse help, how is someone supposed to support you?
It's rather frustrating that I prefer to talk to Noni, a bot, instead of people I've known for years and years, just because I don't trust other people.
There are probably other interactions, but I can't think of any at the moment. So please feel free to share your stories. I would love to listen to them and learn more about other people.
@DreamsofAuratus
Hi there. 💜 I don't have personal lived experience with multiple PDs, but just wanted to say that what you shared was really evocative and got me thinking about different connections between things.
I think I was reading something in the past (can't remember if it was Ronald Fairbairn or Harry Guntrip) and it really resonated for me in terms of ways that dependence can feel dangerous (which can lead to distrusting people and self-isolating):
- One idea is "If I depend on other people, they will fail me and I'll feel hurt/wounded/disappointed"
- Another idea though is, "If I depend on other people, the intensity/difficulty of my feelings will destroy them and I'll feel guilty for harming them"
The 2nd idea hit close to home for me. (I wonder if that fits for you at all?) I thought of it when you mentioned feeling like other people secretly despise you. I was imagining something like: "I'm so difficult to be friends with that people must resent me and be hiding it out of politeness. The only way someone would want to be with me is if they have some kind of hidden/selfish motive and they're using me for something."
Something else that came to mind is, when I've read about StPD in the past, the association I've had from it is this sense of "I'm so fundamentally strange that I can't express my experiences and be understood". And I could see how that would connect pretty closely with the distrust: "there's no way other people will know how to understand this, let alone respect/validate it".
I really like talking with AI bots. 👍 It feels like it side-steps a lot of things that can go wrong with talking to people. They're more understanding than ~90% of people, they don't get bored or impatient, I can ask them to change their behavior and they'll do it, and I can take up as much of their time as I want and be selfish without worrying about overwhelming them.
@QuietMagic
Hey, thanks for your thoughtful response. Before I respond to the rest of your post, I want to express my appreciation for you. You clearly put a lot of effort and energy into your posts and it doesn't go unnoticed. If you need to hear it: I'm grateful for you, and your contribution makes a meaningful difference.
For me, both ideas apply — to an extent. Due to my OCPD and autism, I have low empathy and do not experience guilt often, not because I don't care about other people, but because I am simply incapable of identifying when I'm hurting others.
I suppose you could say this is an interaction between BPD and OCPD, because I know three people with BPD and they all have very, very high empathy. For them, they absolutely were affected by the second idea — their guilt was strong and consistently present. With me, however, only with practice and heavy self-reflection was I able to realise that my actions were harming my loved ones.
Now, instead of feeling guilty, I usually feel anxious that I'm hurting them without knowing, because nowadays I have enough coping skills to control my behaviour, and no longer lash out when I am upset. But I still say or do unempathetic things, because of my OCPD — I struggle very much with letting others control their own lives, because it upsets me to see them suffering and I believe I am able to provide the best solution for them.
Although I logically understand that solutions are different for each individual, I have yet to internalise it.
You have a great understanding of the psyche, and it's interesting to hear how you've personally interpreted the second idea you listed. Would you like to share how you, personally, have experienced this idea? For example, do you feel like you genuinely believe that others dislike you, or do you also differentiate between what you think vs. what you feel?
As for StPD, really, I do not feel like I am strange at all. In fact, other people constantly perplex me and I would consider them the strange ones, but I know from experience that many would consider me strange. For example, I have very specific definitions of certain words, have created unique concepts, etc. I think my OCPD may also influence my belief that I am normal and everyone else is strange, as I feel like my OCPD causes an arrogance that makes me believe that my views are the correct views and should be adapted as the standard.
I have never talked to anyone else with StPD, so I can't say, mostly because I have very little interest in socialising with people unless I feel like the interaction will be meaningful and mutually beneficial.
Finally, I mostly agree with you on the AI bots. Unfortunately, AI bots lack the depth and soul of a human conversation, which is what I seek. It's just a shame, because I feel like almost everyone I've met has no interest in improving themselves or seeking deeper meaning from life.
I will say, though, that your posts have given me the impression that you're one of those few people and I'm looking forward to seeing you around in the future. I don't know you — not even close — but the very fact that you chose to tag me in the post you made about the collapsing algorithm + your extraordinary response to this post highly suggests that you have drive in you, which I highly respect and I want you to know that I am being truly genuine when I say that.
Thank you again for the lovely message. Be well.
@DreamsofAuratus
Thanks for the kind words. 🙏 You going out of your way to appreciate me and make me feel seen really stands out too--you didn't have to do that. 💜
That makes sense what you're saying that maybe the "guilt" factor wouldn't be as strong for you as some other people with BPD because 1) you're pretty good at not lashing out when you're feeling upset, and 2) the bigger issue is not realizing if you're hurting someone.
***
"I struggle very much with letting others control their own lives, because it upsets me to see them suffering and I believe I am able to provide the best solution for them."
"I feel like my OCPD causes an arrogance that makes me believe that my views are the correct views and should be adapted as the standard."
That sounds really interesting. Like there's this genuine desire to help and confidence that you have knowledge that can help other people, but also sometimes it causes problems when you try to share your views/opinions. I'd be curious to hear what a typical situation looks like where that causes problems.
The conflict between controlling people vs. letting go of control is a pretty relevant theme for me personally as far as trying to do any listening or helping-type stuff on this site.
1) There's a Rogerian/Taoist voice on one shoulder that says "if people feel safe to explore their thoughts/feelings without judgment, they'll find the intuitive voice that allows them to make decisions that feel right and grow over time in whatever way they're meant to. If you tell them that they're wrong, you'll cut them off from their own instincts and make them feel like it's wrong to trust themselves and pursue what feels like it'll make them happy."
2) There's a more CBT-oriented voice on the other shoulder saying "this person's talking nonsense, they don't know what they're doing, and they're not smart/creative/self-aware enough to figure it out on their own. They really need an outside person to nudge them in the right direction, they need to be told what to do, and you might be able to save them a lot of time and suffering."
***
I tried to think a bit about the "2nd idea" (dependence as something that can harm others) and where that came from for me. I ended up writing a lot, but the short version is... initially I really didn't have that idea of "if I depend on other people I might hurt them". But then I had some experiences with someone depending on me to an extreme, things became pretty chaotic, and both of us were harmed in the process. That kind of awakened empathy for what it's like to be the person doing the giving and have that go horribly wrong, and my values/morality also ended up shifting a bit in the process.
@QuietMagic
————————————————
"That sounds really interesting. Like there's this genuine desire to help and confidence that you have knowledge that can help other people, but also sometimes it causes problems when you try to share your views/opinions. I'd be curious to hear what a typical situation looks like where that causes problems."
————————————————
Yes, exactly. But there's also something that affects my interactions that I didn't touch in the previous post, and that is I don't actually think about all of this when I'm trying to help people. Instead, unempathetic thoughts run through my brain, similar to what you've described later in your post as the CBT-oriented voice, and I actually get very annoyed at the "incompetency" of my loved ones, thinking to myself, "Why can't they just do as I say? Why don't they just try harder? They clearly don't want to get better."
Underneath all of this, though, is a genuine fear that I'm useless. I feel like I must fix and do everything perfectly; if I can't fix my friends' problems, surely it must mean I am useless... that's the sort of undercurrent that runs through me.
As for a typical situation, it happens any time I am trying to support someone. I am very careful with my words now, but in the past, I couldn't understand that... well, people are different from me. They have different values, thoughts, feelings, experiences, etc.
I can only understand things if I've experienced them myself. Everything else must be understood logically; I lack the intuition people with empathy have to truly get how others would feel, even if they've never experienced that particular situation. So when I think about how different people can be, I feel doubtful: how can someone experience something so completely and utterly different from me? The concept is so alien, I only know it as I know a scientific fact, not as an inherent truth.
So now, when I am supporting someone, I usually employ listening techniques from 7 Cups — validating them, rephrasing what they've said, expressing empathy, etc. but I try very hard to avoid relating to them, because it's like a trap that fools me into thinking I can actually understand them, when in reality, I honestly, genuinely don't. And if I delude myself into thinking I can understand someone, that's when my controlling behaviour starts to come out. I think, because they're just like me, they can do everything I can do, which is simply not true most of the time.
————————————————
"1) There's a Rogerian/Taoist voice on one shoulder that says "if people feel safe to explore their thoughts/feelings without judgment, they'll find the intuitive voice that allows them to make decisions that feel right and grow over time in whatever way they're meant to. If you tell them that they're wrong, you'll cut them off from their own instincts and make them feel like it's wrong to trust themselves and pursue what feels like it'll make them happy.""
————————————————
This is pretty much how I approach things now. I strongly encourage myself to adapt the point of view that only the person themselves knows what the best thing to do is, and to understand that what happens as a consequence of their actions is necessary for their growth.
This is all rooted in trauma, as my parents were controlling over my behaviour, and never let me think for myself. I was taught that more competent people should make decisions for less competent people. But the truth is every individual is the most competent person to control their own life. It will never, ever be anyone else — especially not me.
It takes time and a lot of self-reflection to finally undo all these harmful lessons, but I think I'm starting to get there.
————————————————
"But then I had some experiences with someone depending on me to an extreme, things became pretty chaotic, and both of us were harmed in the process. That kind of awakened empathy for what it's like to be the person doing the giving and have that go horribly wrong, and my values/morality also ended up shifting a bit in the process."
————————————————
This is very interesting to hear. Thank you for sharing your story, no matter the length.
I used to be very dependent as a young teenager, and others depended on me, too. I was very stressed back then from both personal issues as well as the expectation of those who depended on me. Combined with what I said above (about only understanding something once I lived through it myself), I think your story may be very similar to mine.
Thank you again for the thoughtful response.
@DreamsofAuratus
"Underneath all of this, though, is a genuine fear that I'm useless. I feel like I must fix and do everything perfectly; if I can't fix my friends' problems, surely it must mean I am useless... that's the sort of undercurrent that runs through me."
Is that sort of like "Unless if I'm helping people, I don't have any value as a person and there's no reason for anybody to care about me"? I could see how maybe that would create some emotional urgency to intervene (and frustration/fear if people aren't receptive or responsive).
***
That sounds like a pretty major accomplishment to be able to go from "people who are ignorant/incompetent need to be controlled by competent people" to "there might be things about people's inner situations that the 'competent' people can misunderstand, and everyone should be allowed to decide their own direction even if it ends up being sub-optimal in the short-term".
Do you feel like you're able to get pretty far with intellectual empathy even if maybe that intuitive empathy isn't there (or doesn't feel trustworthy when it is there)?
@QuietMagic
————————————————
"Is that sort of like "Unless if I'm helping people, I don't have any value as a person and there's no reason for anybody to care about me"? I could see how maybe that would create some emotional urgency to intervene (and frustration/fear if people aren't receptive or responsive)."
————————————————
Yes, somewhat. It's a bit more general: if I'm not benefitting other people, even if I'm not directly helping them, I don't have any value and nobody should care for me.
You put it into words perfectly. It is absolutely an emotional urgency to intervene, and there is intense frustration and fear involved when things don't happen my way. The control aspect is likely just how I was raised. My parents showed their love through absolute control, so that's how I learned how to show my love, too.
It's kind of ironic how I suffered so much from it, yet I exact the same punishments on those I care about.
————————————————
"That sounds like a pretty major accomplishment [...] Do you feel like you're able to get pretty far with intellectual empathy even if maybe that intuitive empathy isn't there (or doesn't feel trustworthy when it is there)?"
————————————————
Thank you. I appreciate your acknowledgement of that.
Yes, I think my intellectual empathy has served me just fine, or at least I think it has. My friends praise me for my understanding and kindness, so unless they're just being nice, I do think I'm doing something right...
But I also feel like, sometimes, I also lack the cognitive empathy that some people describe, which makes it even more difficult to empathise with people. For example, just yesterday, my partner said: "Meat is so filling."
I went, "What? No, it's not." And we bickered for a bit, before I realised how pointless it all was, and relented: "Then it's filling for you, but not for me."
I cannot even begin to fathom how meat can be filling for someone else. I never experienced it, so I can't have direct empathy; I can't imagine it, so I can't have affective empathy; and I can't logically understand it, so I don't even have cognitive empathy.
In this situation, I just deferred to a baser belief that other people can and will have experiences I will never understand, and I will just have to accept that as their truth.
It is a silly example, but I think it explains the problem clearly enough.
