Politics dividing my family
I feel like I chose a bad title. The issue is that I don’t want to engage with my family anymore because their political views are so gross. My parents voted for Trump and I’m just disgusted. I don’t know how to engage with them and part of me doesn’t want to talk to them at all. But I also don’t think that I will ever fully cut them out of my life or anything like that.
I have been very dependent on them for most of my life. I just feel really lost. I live on my own and I do care about them but I just can’t stand my parents’ political views and am truly disgusted. I want to talk to them about this.
This week the news came out that Trump had wanted his generals to be more like Hitler’s. I can’t be close to or friends with someone who can see how disgusting that man is and would vote for him. Obviously this news came out after the election but there were enough horrible things about him that they should never have considered voting for him. I just feel lost and confused here and am not sure how to engage with them.
The division and discord among many over politics is not about the people it is the work of the never ending OUTRAGE machine.
I do not know what you can call it but it is NOT NEWS.... many of reports on people simply are hear say and not based in fact. regardless of political view .... you can find someone outraged with anyone if you look for it.
people let themselves get worked up by this without looking at the source or using critical thinking about who or where you are taking these stories from..or if it makes sense... what is the angle and yes they ALL have them trying to incite outrage in every thing without real concrete proof or facts just a " source close to" ... reminds me of the crap people have to deal with in JR high.
Ever hear of the telephone game for each repeating of some scandal type gossip each retelling got juicier and farther from what was actually start of game.....
If you do want to discuss start with issues ......not personalities different views and approach with how to address each issue........ do not approach with " well , i heard or so and so said"
Why do you let this work you up because it is in the past .... people are letting other manipulate their outrage over a assumption about something that sounds terrible....
if you think things about people who voted or did things in past ... what is the point ? ........time travel back to change their minds?
be a solution not another person pushing labels and assumptions on people you do not agree with.
@toughTiger6481
I mean I think there have been enough things that have happened that they shouldn’t have voted for him way back when they did. I recognize that this specific news is recent but there has just been too much. I think I need to talk to them but I don’t know what to say. It’s just really frustrating and stressful.
At the moment I am kind of avoiding talking to them, and I don’t think that help. I could easily just go over to their house and talk to them, they only live a few minutes away. I do work a lot, though, and feel like I rarely have the time or energy to go over them and talk to them.
I don’t know how I want to approach it but I feel like I’m kind of freezing them out and I feel like that is stupid. I need to at least communicate with them. I have to. I guess I don’t really know where to start but just ignoring or not talking to them doesn’t solve anything. I need to start somewhere. I just feel a little lost.
@eumesmo
If you feel the need to talk ....it is never about where you start but where you end up.... is your mind open or do you plan to convert someone to your thinking?
i think you need to again let go of past and if you talk about politics at all leave past and "talking points or narrative" out of it.... just discuss issues you would like to.
I cannot imagine holding a grudge over something someone did 6 years ago
@toughTiger6481
It was two years ago, not six years ago. But the issue here I would say is the rise of Nazism and fascism in my country, so I would talk about that with them. Also Christian Nationalism. I don’t think those are talking points, I think they are specific issues that have to be talked about. I know you are not specifically saying that those are talking points, but I think those are the specific things that have to be talked about. That is an issue I feel like I definitely have to discuss with them.
I don’t know if I am so much trying to convert them as just have a conversation with them and set my boundaries. The way I feel is that if they are not willing to forcefully condemn these things and distance themselves or condemn people advocate for them, then I am not willing to have them in my life. So this is mostly about me setting boundaries. I actually think I am being too nice to them, to be honest. But I feel like I absolutely have to be clear with them about who I am and where I stand and what my boundaries are.
I guess the main thing is that I am not sure exactly how to communicate this to them. I think it is best to have this conversation in person rather than by phone or through text or something.
But another thing that stresses me out is that my sister lives with them and she is really depressed. So I don’t want for any of this blowback to fall on her, because she is having a hard time in life and I really want to make sure she is okay.
I guess I am just feeling a bit stuck and confused. I don’t know how to start this conversation with them but I have been holding this anger for a long time and I need to actually say something. I think I will start by just texting them and communicating so that we can reestablish communication. I don’t know. I just feel super lost…
@eumesmo
"The way I feel is that if they are not willing to forcefully condemn these things and distance themselves or condemn people advocate for them, then I am not willing to have them in my life. So this is mostly about me setting boundaries. "
sounds like more of an ultimatum then a discussion .... but you do you....
@toughTiger6481
I mean it kind of is an ultimatum. I don’t want to be associated with people who are okay with these things. It’s a very serious issue. I am not in any way okay with it. I actually feel like I’m being too nice.
As things stand I haven’t actually really done anything yet, they and I have had conversations but we haven’t really talked in depth about these issues. I think I want to talk to them in person. The thing I am most struggling with is trying to figure out what exactly I want to say and how I want to say it. But this is a really important issue and I don’t have much empathy for them if they are not willing to do the right thing. That’s just the way things are. I don’t feel like I need or should be nice about it. I know it might sound harsh to some people, but why does it sound harsh? What is actually wrong with anything I’m saying? I think I’m honestly even being a bit too nice.
So far, I have been to nice, but I’m tired of just ignoring these things and being fake nice. I need to be honest with them. I’m tired of our fake relationship. I feel like I really have to be honest and clear with them. I don’t know how it will go but I need to set boundaries with them. What I want to figure out is exactly how to express those boundaries….
And yes I know this might sound harsh to some, but this is what I believe. The question is how I can go about having these conversations. But anyways I’m going to try to make some progress on these conversations and see how they go. I’m honestly not super optimistic but I feel like I absolutely have to have these conversations.
I feel like I need to figure out exactly what I want to say, though. All of this has been draining me for a while because I haven’t set boundaries and I haven’t been clear, and I feel like I need to change that. I think it will take me some time to sort through these feelings and figure out exactly what I want to say, though.
@toughTiger6481
The Jan. 16th hearings are incredibly damning, and the evidence is clear, well sourced, and unbiased. It's impossible to argue against. I'm honestly shocked at the violence that was committed that day. I had no idea that it was that bad, until I saw the video that was recorded by one of the insurrectionists as he beat a cop. I do think it was too violent to be shown on TV, though. I agree that propaganda is bad, but there is such a thing as real news and genuine facts. But yeah, I think the violence was too much to show on daytime TV.
@GoldenNest2727
Sorry, I made a typo there. I meant the Jan. 6th hearings. I have two cats jostling for my lap, so please excuse my mistake.
@GoldenNest2727
Things like that are exactly what I mean. It's gotten too bad. These aren't things I can just ignore. I work in a very political job and it is really important to me to live according to my values. Things are getting way too bad. I'm honestly worried about the future. I do want to talk to my parents about this but most of the time I shy away from it because I am scared of confrontation. So that's where I am right now...
@toughTiger6481
Yup, the TDS mainstream media outrage machine.
Probably the most informative post on this thread. I'm surprised it hasn't been censored.
Honestly, the more I read, I would welcome having the OP's family as neighbors.
TDS? What are you referring to?
@OasisRedbeard
You say you're not trying to convert them but that if they don't see things your way then you don't want them in your life? That seems kind of narrow minded I'm sorry to say. Just my opinion though. Wouldn't a better way be to just simply leave politics out all together? I mean there are people I don't agree with when it comes to politics so we've agreed not to talk about them. They have their views and I have mine. I mean you have to do what you feel is best for you of course
@mytwistedsoul
I mean in this situation it is different to me. How can you not take a stand against Nazism? In my view the rise of fascism and fascist are the biggest issue in my country right now. Nothing else is as important. I don't want people in my life who don't care about this or take it seriously. I'm committed to doing what I can to stand for my values and if people aren't aligned with my views and values then I just see them as dragging me down as I try to find ways to fight for and support marginalized people who are actually targeted by the views and policies of a lot of people who are trying to get power or actually have power.
That's the main issue I am dealing with here. I have to be honest and I'm not going to mince words with them. The main thing I need to figure out is what exactly I want to say, and honestly I am feeling a little stuck there.
@eumesmo
Try an exercise of if someone important to you in your life maybe down the road your own child or a significant other told you to accept their way of thinking or be cut off.... would you smile and say yeah OK
maybe this is an item they feel something about but you assume their thoughts or views because.......... you feel their views are gross ......is how you put it ....... not a mature term
Once done........ I can tell you that in the long run this is not a conversation that will be forgotten or forgiven.
@toughTiger6481
How could I avoid this, though? What would that say about me? It's a time right now when people need to be clear about who they are and what their values are. How can we tolerate these things? That's what I am thinking about.
I know these are not easy topics or conversations but they have to be had. Not having them is what will make things worse. I tend to be a lot nicer in person that I am online, obviously I am different on an app like 7 Cups than I am directly with someone, that is the whole point of the app. But I don't feel okay at all with just accepting someone's views and continuing on nice and friendly with them when I actually feel a lot of anger and hatred towards them.
I don't think it is unnatural or wrong to see certain views as gross. I think everyone is offended by someone else's views is one way or another. I think it is incredibly important to talk about these things because what will make things worse is to just ignore them or act like they are okay. There is a rise in right-wing fascism in my country and it scares the hell out of me. Avoiding these conversations will just make things worse.
I don't think I'll talk to them about it this week, they have visitors over and it would just be a bad idea. But I think it is something I need to talk to them about in person. Trying to do it over text will just backfire, I think. It is much easier to have a conversation about these things if I am actually there with them. But I am not sure exactly when I want to do that...
@eumesmo
It is obviously a big deal to you....and personal
i just suggested you talk issues and find common ground instead of assuming their position or being defensive... regarding any polarizing personality...........being accused or put on defense only makes a person stick to their ideas/ position instead of acknowledging there are ways of seeing it differently......
I just think you need to be able to discuss with openness but that is on BOTH sides ....you seem very closed. you will not change minds by threats
When thinking about what to say ..... how do you imagine the response?
It is a trick question........
because when we imagine a certain response we are ready to pounce with our response and are not open to ..... something we never expected .
@toughTiger6481
I mean I think focusing on issues is a good idea. But I also think it is important to talk specifically about the things that certain people have been saying and doing. I think it is important to get specific.
Honestly, I really want to talk to my parents about these things. I really want to just go to their house and have a conversation with them. What worries me is that my sister lives with them and she is stressed out and depressed and I don’t want her to receive any blowback from a conversation I might have with my parents.
But I have to talk to them about these issues, they aren’t something I can just ignore. Maybe I will try to gradually talk to them and then bring this up and try to find a way to have a conversation about specific things going on right now. I do know I have to set boundaries but I am not sure exactly what boundary I want to set. Maybe that is what I need to think about…
@eumesmo As I said you have to do what you feel is best for you. You do realize that it's not Trumps policies that are being pushed anymore though right? It's the current administration's policies and in my opinion there is a lot of fear mongering and half truths being spread by both sides in an attempt to do this very thing which is to cause division among We the people.
I wish you the best with this conversation with your family but I'm going to bow out of this conversation because I can't see it going too well for either of us
Take care
@mytwistedsoul
It speaks to their values, though.
@GoldenNest2727 What about the other people values though? Who decides who's values are more important?
@mytwistedsoul
You say that as though there's no such thing as right and wrong, good and bad. Haven't we already decided as a global society that Nazism is bad? Don't we all agree that the South really messed up with slavery? Don't we all believe in equality, in treating others politely, in being civil, and in human decency? Don't you believe that women are worth just as much as men? The whole "two sides/both sides" and whataboutisms don't apply here.
@GoldenNest2727
Right, this is about fundamental decency and treating others as humans. It's not like I am talking about physically hurting my parents, I am simply talking about setting clear boundaries with them and telling them how I feel. What I am discussing doing isn't really that big of a deal. I need to speak out because what would it say about me if I didn't....?
Just don't talk politics at home. We happen to agree on the Trump issue at home, but we have friends of different orientation and we refuse to talk politics with them, as that will kill friendship in no time. They are vocal about their orientation, but we keep things to ourselves. The only thing that I can't stand being silent about is antivaccers. They are killing themselves, their families, and others.
@LostTurtle22
I agree with you about being against taking vaccines, but fortunately I don't have that issue. They voted for Trump for different reasons. I think it's really important for us to talk about all of this. For a lot of reasons. For one, I am bisexual and there are people in the party that they are voting for that are targeting LGBTQ people. Furthermore my girlfriend is Black. All of these political issues are really personal. There is a lot to all of this. My family is Latine/white.
This topic is complicated but I just can't stay silent about it. I have to talk to them about this... I just don't know exactly what to say....
@eumesmo
I think you're probably just going to have to let it go and spend less time with those people. You have my sympathy. ❤️
@GoldenNest2727
I will think on this. This thread has given me a lot to think about so far. Thank you -
@eumesmo
I see it's more personal for you. The thing that blows my mind is the least educated, poorest, and rural folks are the easiest to be brainwashed to support greedy politicians who only do it for the money and for their wealthy cronies.
@LostTurtle22
It’s really sad. I think racism and the media have been the main way that this wedge has been shoved between working class people in this country. FOX News is what I blame for a lot of it, they are a very powerful outlet with a lot of influence.
In my parents’ case, they are neither uneducated or poor, they actually have a lot of money, and that might be why they are so conservative. But I think it also comes from their specific background - they come from a South American country with a lot of political trauma and war and I think that is a big reason they are so conservative. But still, it is really hurtful a lot of the views that they have and decisions they have made. I need to talk to them about it but I don’t know how…
@eumesmo
Right, some people do it hoping rich folks get a larger tax break.
@LostTurtle22
Taxes do seem to be a big issue to them. That and abortion. They are also very religious. They admittedly do pay a lot in taxes but they also have a huge salary. My dad especially had a huge salary before he retired, more than I could ever imagine myself having.
I think for them those are the two main things. And honestly when it comes to abortion, it seems like it going to be hard to talk to then about that. It would probably be better to find something else to discuss. My biggest issue is probably racism. That is what I most care about. The spread of racism in this country is what most bothers me. And honestly it’s not a new thing at all, I just think it’s gotten more open and people are more shameless about it. It really scares me.
@eumesmo
Can you find common ground outside that one blowhard? For instance, many of them did do the right thing in the end. Pence, the Chaney family, Raffensperger, and many others stood up to protect our democracy. Look at what it has cost them, too. They had to know what they were risking, yet they stuck their necks out anyway. They were brave! They were honorable. Maybe you can find common ground on that. Taking the hard right, rather than the easy wrong. So, if they bring up politics, just steer the convo back to that. Focus on common ground if you can.
@GoldenNest2727
I think finding common ground is crucial. But I also think I need to discuss specifics around certain things that have been happening in the US. I am bothered by their vote for Trump but also how much they watch FOX News. I know my dad used to watch Tucker Carlson, and he’s known as one of the main proponents of the whole “White Replacement Theory” conspiracy theory that motivated the murders of Black people at a Buffalo grocery store. I think that is where I need to start, because that is one of the things that is most hurtful to me.
eumesmo, you mentioned that they watch the news a lot, well, that's not healthy for anyone. There's so much gloom and doom out there. It gets depressing after a while. Is their world small? The pandemic caused many people to isolate themselves. It happens when we age as well. You can really get into a rut of negativity and outrage if all you're seeing is bad stuff. Can you encourage them to turn off the news and engage in healthier activities? Maybe you could plan an outing together? Doing an activity as a family could help strengthen your relationship. Get them on neutral ground and enjoy some time together.
@GoldenNest2727
They do watch the news a lot. I live pretty close to them, about 10 minutes away, but I don’t see them very often. Usually I try not to see them, actually. I just have a hard time talking to them. Honestly I kind of want to spend a bit more time with them just so these conversations can come up naturally and we can have them. But it’s hard because as you can tell I am feeling pretty torn. I just have a lot of mixed feelings.
My dad’s birthday is actually this Thursday so I will stop by for a bit and leave him something, just a small present probably. And then maybe some things can come up in that time there and we can talk.
I don’t feel super inspired to plan something with them, but maybe I can make an effort to go their house more just to talk about these things or just talk. I also text with them sometimes, so I can try to bring up some of these issues through text but I think it would be a lot easier to have these conversations in person…
@eumesmo I'm with you 100 %, same situation. I live with my fiance, and he listens to the bulls*&^ and tries to engage me in conversation like it is a kind of equal debate over issues. I wouldn't mind that approach with many political topics, as there are usually 2 sides with value. I was a debate captain in school, and well thought out arguments are worthwhile - but this is just ludicrous.
I also am disgusted and I try not to make it personal, but I turn up the radio whenever he has some of it playing on his phone, so I don't have to listen. If he brings it up in conversation, I try to say something sensible to counter it, but it doesn't go anywhere. I can hear in my voice that I get angry thinking he swallows it as facts. He knows how I feel by now. I can't offer you advice, but I try to change the subject, or leave the room. I pray this man gets justice and it comes to an end.
PS I also pray for Trump just as I would anyone who is so messed up.
stay calm for your own sanity if you can. In there with you hon.
@eumesmo Hi. You said something like “you have to” talk to your parents and “take a stand.” But maybe they are becoming a proxy for a politics that you disagree with. That is, you won’t change the world by changing them. Your parents have exactly one vote each. So in the scope of politics you’d be better off discussing your views with someone who is perhaps more politically on the fence. Of course your only goal is not just politics, right?. Also keep in mind that you may well change their minds but it might be an incredibly long process (possibly years). You have to be yourself, and I understand wanting your parents to see you for yourself and accept your values and choices. I assume they love you very much and you love them. Before you speak to them maybe ask yourself. Are you responsible for influencing their politics? Are you envisioning your conversation to be an emotional relief for yourself or something that brings you closer together? The machine of politics has often sought to divide people. In whose interest is that division? If you let this divide you from your parents, have the forces behind this machine not scored a victory? …
@helpfulAvocado7912
You make a lot of interesting points. I don't think being divided from my parents helps me a lot in the long run, nor does it really serve the values and goals that I care about. I guess the issue is that I want to find a way to talk to them about a lot of these issues. For example, my girlfriend feels uncomfortable going to their house because she knows about their political views, and she feels targeted by their views and by decisions they have made and people they have supported, and I completely understand her perspective. She has many marginalized identities and I absolutely understand how she feels and my main priority is protecting and supporting her.
I want to find a way to talk to my mom and dad about all of this but I am not sure how to do it. It is true that they only have one vote each, and I think it might be interesting and potentially productive to talk about upcoming elections and see what they are thinking... But mostly I am concerned with just protecting and supporting my girlfriend. That is my main concern. I really just want her to feel comfortable and safe.
It's a really tricky situation and doesn't have any simple answers or solutions. I really want to talk to my parents about a lot of these things but my main priority overall is protecting my girlfriend and not putting her in situations where she feels uncomfortable.
My parents don't know that she has negative feelings towards them, because I am pretty evasive and avoidant about the reasons why I don't go over there very much and the fact that she hasn't been over there with me since I moved out. It's a huge issue and I don't know how to discuss it.
There's just a lot for me here. I really want to talk to my parents but I'm not really sure where to start. One of the things that is hardest for me is that my mom often asks if my girlfriend will be coming over to their house soon, and I usually have to find some evasive excuse or thing to say to avoid answering the question directly. That's a big source of stress for me....
Ok. I’m gonna be honest here. That’s still your family. That’s your parents. Even if you don’t agree with them, I think that letting something as insignificant as that affect your relationship with them is safe. And makes me wonder….maybe the problem is with you.
I say that your reasoning is insignificant because 1) Trump isn’t even in office anymore (so you’re holding onto something that doesn’t matter and is not relevant anymore) and 2) there is always someone who is going to disagree with you on something. Alway! Every where you go.
like these people raised you. Kept you clothed and taken care of. Food in your stomach and a pillow to sleep on. I know that is a parent’s responsibility but a lot of people don’t get to experience that.
I am not trying to be mean please don’t take it that way because it really isn’t my intention. But honestly, life is way, way to short to cut ties with your family over something as minor as a political stance. At least that’s my opinion.
@Adaptablebike1507
I’m probably not going to cut ties with them. But this is important to me and I can’t just let it go. I know they did all that stuff for me but that *is* a parent’s job.
Like, I have a girlfriend who is Black and they watch FOX News. FOX does nothing but spread racism and homophobia and hatred. These are all very important issues. If I actually care about my relationship and connection with them and I care about authenticity and my values, I can’t just ignore this. I have to talk to them about it. Also, it shouldn’t even matter that my girlfriend is Black, it’s just about being a decent person.
But the thing is, finding a way to talk to them about these things is really challenging.
@eumesmo
But if your parents were full on racist, wouldn't you know it? If your friend was getting bullied because she's Black, do you think they'd speak up for her? How likely are they to be mean?
@GoldenNest2727
They see themselves as not racist, but they are extremely ignorant about racism and the racial history of the US. And they have said many racist things in the past. My dad also has a copy of the Bell Curve, a famously racist book which he has spoken about admiringly. And he has said racist things about genes and stuff like that. So I think it’s accurate to say that they are racist. They also voted for Trump, which is pretty much impossible to do if you’re not racist.
They would definitely not be directly mean to my girlfriend and they have said some supportive things towards Black Lives Matter but the fact is that they still have a lot of racist beliefs.
I think it is impossible for someone to be completely devoid of bias and racist beliefs that they inherited from their society and culture, but my parents don’t seem to be very willing to learn and grow, and that is the challenging thing. I do want to talk to them about this and challenge their beliefs directly, but at the moment my girlfriend doesn’t feel comfortable going to their house and I understand her. I don’t want to put her in any situation where she feels uncomfortable
@eumesmo
Yeah, that is pretty extreme. I feel you there.
@Adaptablebike1507
They fed, clothed, and housed her? Well, yeah. Not taking care of your kids is a crime. They're not above reproach just because they covered the basics of parenting.
And sure, he's not president now, but he wants to run again. He's also caused a ton of damage and still holds regular outrage sessions. So, at what point is the OP allowed to express her concern without that concern being called insignificant?
I feel like I'm reading an entirely different conversation here. To me, the OP comes across as loving her parents and deeply hurt by their decision to back the man whose tops with the Nazi party. She's spoken kindly about her parents and hasn't been disrespectful. She finds it hard to reconcile the people she loves with the people who continue to stand up for racist ideology, or are at least apathetic/unconcerned if it comes along with low taxes. The OP has said she wants to talk to them. Those are hardly fighting words. What's the alternative? If you keep silent, doesn't it just fester?
@GoldenNest2727
I agree with most of what you said but for the record my pronouns are “he/him” and I’m a cisgender male!
@eumesmo
Oh, I'm sorry! My apologies. I'm a woman, so I tend to default to "her/she" for everyone until they tell me differently.
I'm so sorry. I'm right there with you. I've tried to calmly state my opinion and it caused so much drama. So I said we should just agree to disagree but my family constantly talks about politics. We could be having a lovely visit and a nice conversation and they will suddenly start ranting about politics thar barely relate to the topic. Basically, I'm not allowed to ever share my opinions but they want me to have to listen to theirs. So to everyone saying to not talk politics, that doesn't work if the other person/people won't be respectful.
Also, politics ARE personal so it makes sense you'd be taking it personally. There's some things that people can reasonably disagree on, but basic morals isn't one of them. My family has started saying some really horrendous things.
I don't feel comfortable completely going no contact but literally every single time I see them my mental health suffers.
Sorry I don't have advice. Just letting you know you're not alone.
@wittyGrapes7678
Thank you, I think a lot of us are in the same situation. It is amazing how much hatred is being spread by network like FOX News. It should be a crime. All of the racism, homophobia, xenophobia… All of the dehumanization. I think that is their main tool. It is so sad and gross. I wish I were optimistic about the future but I’m really not.
I want to talk to my parents about all of this but it is icky to me. I do care about them but I also want to do all I can to fight back against all of the racism and homophobia and sexism and it is so stressful when the people in your life who you care about not only don’t seem to care about these things but are making actively hurtful decisions and supporting candidates that are supporting policies and saying things that are spreading more hatred and making life even harder for people who are members of marginalized groups.
It’s all so heartbreaking and makes me so angry. I wish I had an easy solution but there really isn’t one.
I don’t know what kind of relationship I want to have with my family but I need to think about this.
@wittyGrapes7678
Can you try redirection? Ask about their kids/grandkids. If you know they enjoy their job, ask how that's going or how a project is going. Ask about their pets. If you know they've been somewhere, ask about the trip. In general, people love to talk about traveling. If they've done a recent reno or moved, bring that up. Those are lighthearted topics that seem to keep people chatting. You could also ask them for advice, so long as you keep it light. Maybe ask for movie or restaurant suggestions.
If it's your home they're visiting, block the news stations and either turn the TV off, or put it on something neutral like HGTV. I've also used, "Uncle I didn't drive all this way to talk about politics. I came to see you. I really want to catch up with what's going in your life. It feels like ages since we've gotten together. Now tell me all about..."
I remember a time when it was considered tacky to discuss religion, finances, or politics in social settings. I miss those days. Sadly, now it's always negative political stuff. Always outrage. It just puts a huge damper on the atmosphere.
