Community Discussion on Recent Updates! 5PM ET Tonight!
Today at 5PM ET - in 2 hours, we will have a hangouts on air call to discuss the recent updates to 7 Cups.
Update: Back 7 Cups
We have been talking about this update for some time (take a look at this thread, written by @glenm for more information), but now that is has launched we'd like to discuss it with you as a community.
Everyone is welcome to listen in! If you miss the call, you will have the opportunity to go back and listen. There will be a recording.
Have a question? Please ask it ahead of time using this form.
7 Cups Founder, @GlenM will be leading the call.
How do I join the call? at 4:55 PM ET, the call link will be posted in this thread. Subscribe to this thread for link!
Follow along in the "7 Cups Live" chatroom! We will open these rooms during the live chat.
@Laura we dont have permission to use the form for questions can you please open that up so we can submit some :)
@Kallie112358
Whoops all set now :)
@Laura
brill thanks :)
Nice one Laura :) I will try and join along! How long is the call expected to last?
Hey. This has been copied from the LSR. I won't be able to make the discussion but if someone is able to pass this on for me, that would be fantastic. I like the idea of backing (note: donating) to the site to help keep it running and further improve -- and in return you get some perks such as access to new features before everyone else. I'm okay with that. My concern is purely if a user's experience is going to be hindered based on how much you pay/donate. I don't like the idea of paying for the privilege of being helped, or vice versa -- especially when we are not professionally trained to provide said help (unless you plan on introducing certified courses?) That's my two cents. Hopefully someone is able to pass it on as I can't get on until an hour after the discussion starts.
I don't want it to be "you can only get help on certain topics if you pay". Which, from Glens post, is what it sounds like. Though I could be getting the wrong end of the stick here.
The emphasis should be on donating for the sake of donating and not on donating because you'll be able to get that help you deserve only if you donate. I think it'd be more of a hindrance if worked in that manner.
I think 7cups should remain free with the option of donating if you want. A fancy title and new forum access as a thank you, perhaps.
I don't think 7cups should become paid with the option of not paying if you don't want to receive full support. Especially when a lot of our members are vulnerable and just need someone to talk to.
I hope that was coherent.
@BugInARug You couldn't be more correct and I completely agree! Glen has emphasized that the money raised will go towards us as a community and helping us to exceed our mission and continue with our heroic efforts in changing the world for the better! 7 Cups is and will always be free for those who need us the most.
@SimonTheGr8 I get that entirely and I like the fact it is being monetized. I don't disagree with monetization.
I disagree with implementation.
@BugInARug
I think we all share the goal of keeping the basic core service of 7 Cups free for everyone and are trying to figure out how to do that effectively.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn To put it plainly, by not using a subscription service. There are far more efficient ways of monetizing a site as fantastic as 7COT without alienating those who can't pay.
I get that fundamentally the service won't change, but when you rebuild a house, you don't typically alter the foundations.
@BugInARug
I appreciate your passion but you are making assertions without much evidence or argument to support them, so it's hard to know how to engage.
To put it plainly, by not using a subscription service. There are far more efficient ways of monetizing a site as fantastic as 7COT without alienating those who can't pay.
What are those far more efficient way, is efficiency the critical issue, and do I accept that having a way to donate alienates those who can't pay? (No I do not.)
I get that fundamentally the service won't change, but when you rebuild a house, you don't typically alter the foundations.
I agree. This is why the basic service will remain free. That is precisely the foundation.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn Firstly, thank you so much for replying Krink. I really do appreciate it.
I appreciate your passion but you are making assertions without much evidence or argument to support them, so it's hard to know how to engage.
I get that; it can be hard to engage when someone is dissatisfied (or is portrayed as such). I'm not. Any assertions or conclusions I've made or have come up with, have all been rooted in what has been said by the admins, members and listeners. As well as what I've read, seen first hand, or listened to.
I've typed what I want to say several times on various comments; and don't want to repeat myself all over the forum but please, please; if you want to, I'm happy to discuss via PM.
What are those far more efficient way, is efficiency the critical issue, and do I accept that having a way to donate alienates those who can't pay? (No I do not.)
There may have been some miscommunication there and that would be my issue so sorry about that. What I meant wasn't that having a means to donate to 7COT alienates people, I mean that the implementation of the subscription service can alienate members (such as those who have financial issues -- don't we offer support to members about finances? One of the paid self-help single paths is "Finances: Financial Freedom"). I understand that to some $5 isn't a lot, but to others, it is a lot.
I think a lot of the issues can be down to what appears to be an attempt to sugar coat what 7 Cups of Tea is actually offering. Terms like "donation", "donate", etc are being thrown around without truly thinking on the meaning. Again, I'm not saying I don't like what is being offered. I do. Please don't think otherwise. My issue is how it's being implemented.
7COT is saying that if members "donate" to a subscription service, they'll receive "benefits" and "perks" for doing so -- which is, ultimately, making the "donation" the act of purchasing the benefits. It's making it the primary focus. I understand that isn't the intent, but that's the outcome. And intent means nothing when the outcome is different.
Allow people to donate without offering perks (or, at the very most, a 'donators' badge). And allow members to purchase the courses, for a minimal fee, those that will benefit them. They are written by professionals so use that; market it well.
"7 Cups of Tea offers various paid self-help guides and courses to help you grow and develop as a person that have all been written by professionally trained psychologists, therapists, and doodads." That kind of thing.
My biggest issue is not what they're offering, but how they're offering it.
I want to throw another metaphor out there:
A burger is more likely to garner a positive response in a gourmet restaurant than in a fast food chain.
The subscription service is the burger. The way it's being portrayed, to me, is akin to that of the fast food chain.
Even sticking to the subscription model, but not saying you're donating, I think, would have garnered a much more positive response than sticking the "donation" label on to the service. That isn't what's happening. Members are subscribing to 7 Cups of Tea (the full whack). That is what's happening. It isn't a donation; it's paying for a service. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
This probably sounds like a load of incoherent nonsense so I'll stop there.
I agree. This is why the basic service will remain free. That is precisely the foundation.
Again, which isn't my issue.
To reiterate:
The issue isn't strictly what. It's how.
Sorry if that's come across as rude or brash.
@BugInARug
what you're saying does not sound incoherent and much of it I agree with or potentially do so or believe would be actionable, etc.
Re this:
7COT is saying that if members "donate" to a subscription service, they'll receive "benefits" and "perks" for doing so -- which is, ultimately, making the "donation" the act of purchasing the benefits. It's making it the primary focus. I understand that isn't the intent, but that's the outcome. And intent means nothing when the outcome is different.
Actually, I'd say we are testing two different mental models: donating (back us) and subscribing. In some ways they are quite similar. Backing us as a member unlocks the personalized paths. Upgrading as a member gives the sustainability icon. But the decision is framed in a different way and the emphasis is different. Over time we will find which is the more effective model.
So, as a listener, for example, or a guest, or even a non-user of the site who may support its mission or the help it has given to a loved one, we can donate without really any thought of perks or upgrading etc.
(By contrast, the upgrade model does focus on getting additional services and secondarily supporting the site.)
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn
Actually, I'd say we are testing two different mental models: donating (back us) and subscribing. In some ways they are quite similar. Backing us as a member unlocks the personalized paths. Upgrading as a member gives the sustainability icon. But the decision is framed in a different way and the emphasis is different. Over time we will find which is the more effective model.
I'm fine with them being separate entities but at the moment, they're not. They are both subscription models and it is not clear what the difference is. They're both described as receiving both, and both described as subscription models and monthly payments. I think it'd work better if you want to go down the donation route if you have a donation button that makes it clear you are DONATING only and receiving nothing aside from the sustainability badge -- and make it clear what it's for. I.e. "Donator" badge for one of donations and "Recurring donator" for subscription donations.
I like the idea of the paths, though, as I've said, the "how" this has all been dealt with has not been at all what should have happened. But I don't want to repeat myself.
So, as a listener, for example, or a guest, or even a non-user of the site who may support its mission or the help it has given to a loved one, we can donate without really any thought of perks or upgrading etc.
Exactly. Make that clear. Don't use the two synonymously (upgrading & backing) as it feels that way right now. I wouldn't even use the terms upgrading and backing as they need explaining financially -- use "donate" and "subscribe". Allow members to donate what they want, how they want. Open it up.
Have a set subscription as per your plan (I think it's $7.99 p/m?) -- and make sure members know it isn't a donation.
(By contrast, the upgrade model does focus on getting additional services and secondarily supporting the site.)
Again, there's nothing wrong with that. But as it stands, it isn't clear.
Make it clear what backing is and make it clear what upgrading is. It's very mixed right now and it is leading to confusion, misunderstanding, aggrevation, annoyance and so much more negativity than needs to be.
Thanks!
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn I also want to point out that I think, for a website like 7 Cups, advertising "Subscribe today; start feeling better now" is not how you should be advertising at all. Don't bring the focus to the subscriptions, you're going to get them anyway. I can assure you.
By bringing the focus to members subscribing, it gives off the impression of: "If you don't subscribe, you won't start feeling better."
That isn't the intent, but that's the message.
And with any business model, the message is everything.
@BugInARug
I think the right "call to action" is a tricky question and there is a fine line between being compelling and being manipulative. We want to stay on the right side of the line and at the same time we need to experiment with message, timing, placement, etc. to figure out what works best.
I do understand your concerns and as we test the language we should also take care not to overpromise and not to take advantage of people.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn
I'm glad that 7cups want to stay on the right side of that line, but how it is advertised right now is definitely on the other side of that line.
@amazingRainfall28
Again, I appreciate the feedback and this is how we will figure things out. We had to start somewhere and sometimes it's good to be aggressive and then dial things back if need be than to be timid and perhaps miss out on making something really work.
I do not necessarily concur with outright assertions that THIS is right and THAT is wrong. I disagree that things are so obvious or cut and dried.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn Call to actions are always a difficult thing to use effectively, other than the bog standard; "Sign up now."
I think a lot of members and listeners who are active are very much involved and wanting 7 Cups of Tea, so a call to action much akin to "Help 7 Cups develop; subscribe today [FIND OUT MORE]" will be much more well received.
At the moment, the message being conveyed is that 7 Cups is being manipulative. Again, not the intent.
I really hope you do understand my concerns but I want to add that using the term "donate" is taking advantage of peoples good-will. I think that is the basis for a lot of uproar caused today. I truly think if you, @Laura et al. change the wording from donate to something much less sugar coated, it'll be well received.
But who am I to tell you what to do? I'm happy enough that one of the admin team have responded, even if nothing will come of this. Again, please if any of the admin team want to discuss things further with me, I'm just a message away. I've contacted @GlenM though as yet no response (though I understand everyone is very busy tonight).
I'm not expecting much at all to come from my contribution and opinion on this entire matter, but I'm happy and content you've respond Krink -- so thank you.
I just hope what I've said doesn't fall on deaf ears 
@BugInARug
These are important discussions, and the exact wording can send all kind of subtle signals to different people so we are listening very carefully.
We will be testing different messages for sure and we can try the ones you are recommending as well.
We also want to look at the overall effect of any change, not just whether it drives up a particular number. If something affects morale or the community or the culture that needs to factored in as well and addressed.
PM me if you'd like to discuss directly. I can't always reply in realtime but I will respond when I can.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn The usage of the words "donation", "perks", "benefits", "backing" tied in to one another has caused issues so I really think it would be an idea to begin there.
Instead of "backing", say "Subscribe". People know what that means and honestly, they don't care that much. Backing gives a sense of obligation.
This page: https://www.7cups.com/backus/back7cups.php says, "You can help hundreds of thousands of people in need of emotional support when you join Team 7 Cups and back us with a recurring subscription.", "Because everyone deserves compassion" and "There is a massive compassion deficit in the world".
The intent is: "Give us money, help us help more people."
The message is: "Give us money, or you are contributing to this defecit."
And then, "Unlock the full 7 Cups Journey".
Intent: "Gain access to all the benefits of being a subscriber."
Message: "Unless you pay, you can't possibly get all the support you clearly deserve."
From "Back 7 Cups" to "Become a 7 Cups Subscriber".
From "Help Make the World a Better Place" to "Help us to help more people."
In all honesty, I'd omit the compassion line entirely, as well as the defecit. And focus on:
"We provide support in 140 languages, across 180 countries, to over 100,000 people each week. Your subscription helps us to reach even more -- all whilst developing yourself as a person and getting yourself the support you need when you need it most." Or something like that.
I appreciate your offer though I feel like I have covered everything I want to discuss.
I'll PM you if I think of anything else though, Krink.
Thank you so much for taking your time to respond.
@BugInARug
Thanks for taking time to share your feedback. We'll consider it along with other feedback we are getting, data, etc.
I am still not 100% with you on some of your assumptions. For example, when you write:
The intent is: "Give us money, help us help more people."
The message is: "Give us money, or you are contributing to this deficit."
I accept that you may read it that way, but this is a subjective opinion and I do not think it necessarily follows.
I think there is some value to be sensitive to what the most vulnerable or most inclined to think negatively might take away from a message, but I also think you can overdetermine the outcome that way.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn
I accept that you may read it that way, but this is a subjective opinion and I do not think it necessarily follows.
I get that entirely. Opinions are always subjective and I won't say otherwise but the issues I've pointed out have been expressed by quite a few members today (both in group discussions and to me via PM) so do feel that they aren't completely unfounded or at all assumptions.
I think there is some value to be sensitive to what the most vulnerable or most inclined to think negatively might take away from a message, but I also think you can overdetermine the outcome that way.
Again, I agree entirely. A lot of business is the marketing -- though I feel, and I'll put my personal opinion across now, that on a website thats sole purpose is to provide support to those who need and deserve it, you shouldn't be drawing attention to the vulnerable or those who are most inclined to think negatively -- which, from everything I've witnessed today, is exactly what's happened.
I understand truly the intent with what is trying to be portrayed though sometimes, it's better to just be simple.
@BugInARug
[T]he issues I've pointed out have been expressed by quite a few members today (both in group discussions and to me via PM) so do feel that they aren't completely unfounded or at all assumptions.
I don't question the validity of your opinions or of those shared with you by others. I am just placing them in a larger context and saying that they are not the full story as I see it so far.
... you shouldn't be drawing attention to the vulnerable or those who are most inclined to think negatively -- which, from everything I've witnessed today, is exactly what's happened.
Perhaps, or maybe it's the case that by definition almost any message might be taken in a negative light by those currently viewing things that way? That is, how avoidable is it to make any change without making someone uncomfortable?
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn
I don't question the validity of your opinions or of those shared with you by others. I am just placing them in a larger context and saying that they are not the full story as I see it so far.
And there's nothing wrong with that. It's how discussions are made.
Perhaps, or maybe it's the case that by definition almost any message might be taken in a negative light by those currently viewing things that way?
Perception is always paramount of peoples opinions. If you walk into a room with your eyes closed, you're going to see darkness (I like my metaphors, don't judge!)
I've tried to be as objective as I can with this whole ordeal and I honestly, and I don't even know why I'm needing to reiterate again, believe that the monetization and ideas the whole staff team at 7 Cups have are fantastic. I fully support donations and subscriptions. I've outlined my issues previously.
That is, how avoidable is it to make any change without making someone uncomfortable?
There's always going to be problems with anything. It's how things develop. The most important thing to take away from this, though, is that you're willing to adapt -- and it's clear to me that the 7 Cups Team are, indeed, willing to adapt.
As a famous social networker once said, you can't make a million friends without making a few enemies.
I really do appreciate your responses tonight, Krink. They've been valuable to me. I can only hope now that everything that's been said by everybody today is taken on board and an ideal solution is come up with. I'm happy to offer feedback and advice, though I'm sure the whole 7 Cups team are more than proficient in what they're doing.
You're all amazing.
@BugInARug
Thanks, Bug. I also really appreciate the chance to discuss these things in a serious and penetrating way, and even to be able to disagree while remaining civil with each other and recognizing that we all have good intentions and are acting in good faith.
I think your feedback is immensely valuable and will definitely influence our choices as we go forward, and I hope we can continue discussing these things as well, since I am sure we have plenty to learn together.
@KrinkTheMellowUnicorn
I think that is a perfect way to end!
Have a great night, Krink and I hope you and the rest of the team continue to develop 7 Cups. As you say, we all have good intentions and are acting in good faith.
Sometimes, though, the sun gets clouded by the fog (there I go with my metaphors again).
@BugInARug @Krinkthemellowunicorn, what a nice discussion. I appreciate you all sorting this out. Bug, we are going to be testing the messaging constantly here in the next couple of weeks. We'll test what you outlined as well. Ultimately, to be super pragmatic about this, we need to get 7 cups sustainable. I'm thankful - and it is very clear - that you understand this and also want this to happen. Now, the unanswered question is - what is the best way to do that? That is what we are in the process of answering. Thanks for the feedback and help. I'm very confident we'll get there. It is just going to take us a few weeks.
Why did you remove that other comment? Her opinion should be welcomed, not ignored.
ill be at the discussion just waiting on the link when its posted
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I agree with bug in a rug, I hate how it is advertised, "want to feel better?" Subscribe today. -IT'S WRONG and manipulative. As others have said, I am not against being able to donate but trying to make money that way is to me , completly distasteful.
Please take emotive language out if it, advertise it as backing 7cups and ensuring it's longevity but don't prey on how bad people are feeling and manipulate them into paying money they possibly can't afford.
Have you proof that if they follow your plan they will definitely feel better after 30 days?
I love 7cups but right i dont like being part of community that is advertising in a manipulative way.
@amazingRainfall28 we are utilizing education and exercises that are backed by research, so, yes, as much as anything, these paths are indeed designed to help people not only feel better but actually overcome the specific challenge they are facing. We haven't yet rolled out the specific paths yet.
I understand your perspective, but, again, please try to be patient as we learn and figure things out. It is going to be a process.
@GlenM
I know it's a process and I can completly understand that this is a learning process but I think using the manipulative advertising language could actually go totally against this site and really put off organisations assisting people with mental health issues from recommending 7cups as a good resource and a place for support.
I know personally it has immediately put me off recommending the site to the people I support in my proffession, especially the people who have financial difficulties but who I feel could be very vulnerable to be manipulated into spending money they wouldn't be able to afford to spend.
Having said all that, thank you for reply and I do hope you do listen to the general consensus that people don't dislike the idea of donations but are against how your advertising trying to gain funding for the site.
@amazingRainfall28 I hear you and thanks for the feedback. We don't want to put anyone off and we need to do this in a way that is consistent with our values and mission. Advertising language or not is tricky. We will be refining this. What you see now is our first run at it. Stay tuned and please share any recommended language here or via pm. Thanks!
@amazingRainfall28
I've just seen the button and I also agree. It's manipulative and playing off of people's emotions. It looks like this site won't help you unless you pay, to guests. It's making me feel like this site is going the wrong way. It should be like "Enjoying 7Cups? Why not donate?" or "Has 7Cups helped you? Please consider donating." Not "pay us to feel better"! They're going about this all wrong.
@GlenM
I've made the one minute 7 Cups video but now I don't feel like sharing it because of this update.
@SilentSerenityy, I understand and hear this feedback. We have those messages as well. We are trying to learn as fast as we can on this. It'll just take some time for us to get some insight. As we discussed on our call, there is a tension between what is free and what is subscribed. The free is amazing and very helpful, however, beyond that, we need to have a product that adds more value. It all comes down to us figuring out how to make the site sustainable. If the back 7 cups initiative works, then we are great. If it doesn't, then we need to do something else. That is why we are testing all of these different components. I hope the back us piece works. That would be the best situation. However, we don't know that now, which is why we need to test.
When I volunteered to come on this site and handle requests , I didn't do so to make the founder rich. I did it so I can help people in need who can't afford therapy. I think any monetary transactions should be restricted to to donations , and that this may be the worst update in 7 cups of Tea History.
@Yano, this is about getting the site to sustainability so that it can continue to exist. It is not at all about making me rich. We are testing the back us piece now. I hope that that gets us there. See my above comment for more details.
I agree about the way it is advertised as you log in. A big green button asking me to spend money so I can feel better doesn't give me the impression that what I already get for free will be just as good.
I understand the intentions are good but I feel that there will be a divide that's clear when you go around the community (green leaf badges everywhere) reminding everyone who has donated and who hasn't. I get that it is nice to be thanked for contributing but when I donate to charity I do so quietly and enjoy the fact that I've helped towards a good cause. I don't want any recognition for doing so.
@xFunkyTerminator I hear that. See my above comments. We are testing things and will continue to in order to find the best path forward.
