About Uncomfortable Topics (trigger warning: abuse)
Hi guys :)
As you are aware, there has been some controversy about a thread in the classifieds category. I am not linking to it here and I ask that you dont as well.
To summarize, the thread was asking for a list of listeners who would be willing to help people struggle with sexual issues concerning what could be considered immoral urges. The controversy arose since the victims of the potential actions of these issues and those supporting these victims saw this as an attack on them.
I would first like to iterate: This is not an attack on anyone.
7 Cups has never discriminated on supporting individuals and helping them to become the best version of themselves.
In 2016, a listener asked what do we do if a member confesses to committing a crime in the past? If you are a listener, you can read more about that here, but I will summarize what was said in the post for members. We would continue to the support them. We have no real way to report people as this is an anonymous site, and we have pledged confidentiality.
Also in 2016, a listener asked about the moral and legal obligation of reporting a crime, such as child abuse. If you are a listener, you can read more about that here, but I will summarize what was said in the post for members. Yes, in some places you have a legal obligation to report a crime if you have evidence that would stand up in a court of law. Again, being anonymous, we have no such evidence. Confessions of being abused or abusing across an anonymous internet platform is not condemning evidence.
In 2015, a listener asked how do we deal with homicidal thoughts? If you are a listener, you can read more about that here, but I will summarize what was said in the post for members. Unless the member has indicated they are actively planning to commit homicide, suicide, abuse, etc. we continue to support them. Do your research! Support them with empathy, validation, and professionalism.
This is the last thread Ill share in this post, although there are many more Im sure. This was also in 2015, a listener asked what to do if a member has claimed to have committed a crime. If you are a listener, you can read more about that here, but Im going to just directly quote the comment of interest: Hey @Zizou, the answer to your question is in this post here :)
Essentially in summary, we can't report crimes because it's very challenging to know how we would report the guest when we have no identifying information and they could 'confess' a crime on behalf of someone else in order to get that person arrested for example.
Our rules [state] that we cannot continue a chat if a guest is actively suicidal, planning a homicide, or abusing someone. We need to give them resources and kindly end the chat.
However, most other crimes depend on what you're comfortable talking about and your boundaries. Try to remain non-judgemental and provide a listening ear. We don't know the circumstances surrounding the crime and, after all, we're a listening service, not investigators or a police force. Note: the post they are referring to was a listener's only thread all the way back in 2014! 7 cups has a long standing history of not discriminating :)
Now moving on to the why we support those who have committed crimes or are worried about urges they have to commit crimes.
Most of the time these people are aware it is wrong but are unable to seek treatment. (for example, it is illegal to admit to pedophilic feelings in many areas). When they are unable to seek treatment, it gets worse until they actually end up committing the act.
I am 100% for people having someone to listen to them as they try to work themselves out. A lot of the time we encourage people to go to a professional for more intense issues, but these people literally cannot. We are the best resource they have at this time.
As @affyavo outlined in her post - we are not supportive of abuse, and we will not support someone who is actively abusing or has plans to abuse. But for those that are trying very specifically to not do that, I think it's great that a list of listeners is being made.
It is a sensitive issue, and we do need to make sure that this is not seen as supporting abuse and abusers, but rather supporting victims and preventing more victims.
And finally, please do not discuss this issue in the classified forums. That category is for members explaining what kind of listener they would like, and for listeners explaining what kind of support they can give. One way of doing this is by asking for listeners who are willing to have conversations about difficult topics.
Tagging those who expressed concern or are involved: @AffyAvo @dancingRainbow45 @Puppylove13 @DeborahUK @Anomalia
I apologize if this post sounds rushed or it's in the wrong place - because it was rushed. Please continue discussions about this respectfully and professionally!
Thanks for covering this MonBon!
I agree with everything said here.
The purpose for the listener classifieds was two-fold:
- As it currently stands, 7 cups is to support all who meet the age requirements and aren't homicidal, suicidal or abusive. I wasn't pushing for 7 cups to support anyone that wasn't covered by the current policies already. There were people here who were being hurt when they were attempting to seek support. I was hoping for them to have an easier way to get support without first contacting listeners who lash out at them.
- For the listeners who aren't able to or don't want to handle these topics. They are uncomfortable for most people. They can be highly triggering. If members or guests know who is willing to support them on these issues, there will be less of these topics that come up in the general requests.
I am not against listeners discussing their thoughts on how these chats should be handled. Areas meant for those seeking support for these issues is not the place for it though, especially when anti-support comments come up. Training came up in the classified thread too. I think that's great it came up and it was at least pro-support. I would suggest that listeners who want to discuss that further take that to the listener side - I do hope training on these topics becomes available for those who want it!
Thanks @MonBon for addressing this so clearly. There is one point I have to disagree with you on though. I don't think it's clear that offering support or listening to people with sexual urges, such as those expressing thoughts on incestuous relationships, or paedophiles, is necessarily going to prevent offending. If we go into such conversations with no training, and little understanding of the person raising this or their motivations, I believe we're at risk of validating their thoughts and deeds, rather than deterring them.
We cannot change the world with a few kind words, and the world can be a pretty cruel place. Sex offenders exist, let's not kid ourselves here. And people are hurt by them, often affected for the remainder of their lives. I would ask listeners to consider whether they genuinely believe their intervention will cause less harm than good. And be sure of this good people - don't just hang on to a naive hope you may just happen to say the right thing. Because if you don't, the consequences could be severe.
@DeborahUK
I think you made a fantastic point, Deb. It's important for listeners to only offer emotional support, not feel like they are preventing crimes. Not only are listeners unable to stop sexual crimes, but we don't want a listener to feel they've unknowingly contributed to something because of their ignorance on the subject. That would be a tragedy for not only the victim but also the listener. Listening can be a powerful outlet for those who are struggling, but it's important for listeners to recognize when it becomes enabling and not supportive care (especially when it comes to subjects such as these). I feel like with such a complex and difficult issue, the line may not be as clear as it would be with a professional. That is unfortunately the risk that all listeners share while providing unprofessional services. That doesn't take away from the value of support here at 7cups, it is merely what it is.
As much as I agree with emotional support for all sexual issues, the concerns and fears of those who have spoken up seem rather valid to me. It is the duty of 7cups to ensure that those who are willing to provide support for these issues are trained accordingly.
@TrueArrow @deborahUK
those are valid points! I would love to have more training on the less commonly seen topics that are uncomfortable.
And, you are definitely correct, I should not have implied that it is our duty to prevent crimes! Even with additional training, that is not our job nor our goal. I will edit my original post later tonight when I'm done traveling!
@MonBon Thanks for this post and for clarification on this.
https://www.lucyfaithfull.org.uk/ This organisation works with individuals concerned about their urges.thoughts etc which could potentially lead if thoughts are acted upon to abuse of others.
StopSO is an organisation that works with those at risk of sexual offending with the aim of enabling individuals to stop acting out and therefore reducing the risk to society and lessening the number of victims. Telephone: 07533 675 351 Email: info@stopso.org.uk
I echo concerns raised in Deborah's post. I am also aware that for those who may have gone beyond having thoughts or urges, and actually committed such acts, that it is rare for this to be acknowledged and admitted to, and concerned for the long term impact on listeners supporting members with these issues, which may surface later on, as they have not received the necessary training. I personally feel its better to support these members by finding resources which can then be given to these members by the listeners who have offered to support them so they can receive the specialist support needed.
@dancingRainbow45
That is a truly valid point, thank you rain! You are correct that we should not be personally responsible for prevention, and I should not have implied so.
Thank you for those resources :)
@MonBon
I think one of the things that has arisen is a fear. Having been hurt, many survivors fear being hurt again. In the original post, pedophilia was brought up with incest. While they are both uncomfortable chats for many, they are very different areas of support. One who has tendencies or has harmed a child or teen in the past. The other has been hurt at hands of the other. It's natural there is a fear.
For reassurance regarding fear, this being an anonymous site, as not allowing listeners to share private information or to ask for private information such as contact info, should this occur a review can be written on the one who is asking for the personal with specific information on what they wrote about. In members, addition members cannot contact members. So those struggling with different sexual tendencies or history are unable to contact members who they may wish to contact should someone be here for reasons other than seeking support.
It's not a comfortable situation by any means for those who have experienced sexual abuse or sexual assault. I think this is the concerns. Thank you for sharing the information you have clarified above.
@KristenHR
That is an excellent point Kristen! Thank you for mentioning it :)
@KristenHR
"It's not a comfortable situation by any means for those who have experienced sexual abuse or sexual assault. I think this is the concerns."
I cannot agree more!!! Let's not mistake personal biases vs. valid concerns for sexual subjects discussed here at 7cups. I'm sure Monbon meant no harm in their title, but this isn't just a topic that makes people uncomfortable. Members and listeners alike are worried about the lasting impact of unprofessional support for issues such as these. There's a huge difference and I don't want it mistakenly watered down.
@TrueArrow
That is an important difference! Thank you so much for bringing it up :)
@KristenHR I think you make a really good suggestions which would be good to be implemented, about reviews being written if necessary and to not allow contact with members, which would help to prevent members from being further exploited and hurt should people be here for any other reasons other than support. Those with paedophile tendancies often try and link up with like minded people and it would be abhorrent for that to take place here. As we all know there are members who do not use this service appropriately. If people genuinely wish to seek support then they can do so with the listeners who have offered to support these members. However, the listeners offering that support also need to ensure they keep the professional boundaries in place of not sharing personal information, social media handles or pictures or anything, to ensure the listener too is protected and there are listeners here who are very skilled and well equipped and there are listeners who are perhaps lack experience as a listener. I think this is an uncomfortable and sensitive area which does provoke a lot of feelings and your right, fear has been generated. I think too, training is a valid concern.
@dancingRainbow45 @KristenHR @DeborahUK I do agree with you all as while trying to make 7cups more accepting and available to all types of issues, we shouldn't end up destroying what has already been created? I feel like if this really does happen, there needs to be a solid plan that doesn't destroy more than it creates.. A plan with contingencies and thoughtfulness :)
@PuppyLove13
That is a valid concern! Thank you for bringing that up. We always want to move forward to a more supportive place on 7 cups, and negatively impacting what we've already established is definitely not our goal :) thank you for that reminder as we try to move forward
I'm pleased the discussion about training is active again, and that things are moving forward. I was wondering how hard it can possibly be to write a training guide, and so I've decided to try and write one myself.
Anyone reading this forum thread is welcome to review the working draft at any stage and comment on it either here or by messaging me.
Obviously, any guide will reflect its author's understanding of things. Even so, if you find I've written things you disagree with, or if I've omitted things you consider important, I'd be very grateful if you can put me right.
The working draft is at the link below. At the time of writing this forum post it only contains a content plan and a couple of introductory sections. It will evolve very fast. I hope to complete the first draft over the next few days.
@RarelyCharlie
Thank you Charlie. I will pass it on.
The text of the draft is now complete, at the link above.
Comments are very welcome.
@RarelyCharlie
@RarelyCharlie This really is an amazing guide. It's applicable to so many different chat topics too.
I have come across so many listeners who could benefit from this. For example (and this is based in general with multiple listeners, nothing specific to a few chats), with my illness I often do have thoughts about my own body harming me. This has happened and is likely to happen again. Sometimes, symptoms that seem relatively benign in people without the same illness mean that an emergency situation is more likely to occur. A common response to that is that I shouldn't think like that, I need to think positive. I strongly disagree - it is important I recognize the reality of my situation, evaluate my risk level and take appropriate measures such as staying in a position where I can monitor myself (ie. not sleeping), or at least not sleeping for a long time without waking to check in, and maybe the risk is strong enough that I need to act like an attack is immenient and use medication. Some of those who think I need to think positive seem particularly horrified, TAF may very well be part of that reason and as it's not an issue I deal with it never occured to me that might be affecting those who are trying to support me.
Listeners cannot help me with the risk assessment. They cannot advise me on what I should do. Yet I am frequently told that there is little risk, it's just my anxiety, or the opposite, that I should go to the emergency room - from the facts that I know, both of these are incorrect during such chats. Instead, listeners can listen to me and support me while I am thinking these things through. Sometimes I am frustrated because all of my risk assessment is based on my symptoms and what I know of my illness. I have no digital readout or something like that to provide me with concrete information. I realize this doesn't make for the most easy conversation for a listener, but if they follow this guide it should be easier to deal with.