10/24/18: Guest Accounts Update
Hello Community!
Throughout the past year, we have taken measures to improve the safety of 7 Cups by requiring email verification for any member or listener to participate in the forums or in the group support rooms.
In an effort to continue to make 7 Cups as safe as possible, we would like to discuss the removal of guest accounts from the site. We have many guests using the site in hurtful and unsupportive ways and moving forward we would like everyone to verify their emails in order to participate in any area of 7 Cups.
We need to tighten this last piece of the puzzle up to ensure the safety of our listeners and members in 1-1 chats. The timeline for this update is TBA. But we wanted to share this update with you now to give you the chance to share feedback.
Thank you!
@Laura @jill7cups @Power @Heather225
Looking at the pattern of responses by Laura and Kate being directed mostly at replies favorable to doing away with guest accounts, its not at all difficult to speculate that the decision was already made.
This thread merely exists to pre-warn people to prevent it from being a huge surprise.
Expect to see this implemented in the coming months. It's a done deal.
@DaveTheDogisBestDog Yeah, with discussions and previous changes already made not a big surprise. I think it's sad that the guests accounts are being lost entirely, but I understand it. I just hope we can give as much anonymity as possible to those who want it while solving the issue.
@AffyAvo
Only problem I foresee is the guest trolls signing up to become listener trolls, if some haven't already. The bar is exceeding low for listeners as it is and a determined one could cause all sorts of havoc.
@DaveTheDogisBestDog yes, they didn't even hide the decision was already made.
What keeps me posting is, I like to discuss with everyone, learning their perspective.
And I don't want to make admins feel there was no arguments about this decision.
@kindSoul10 yes I agree soul, looking back on all the responses although there are plus sides, there's a lot of viewpoints and thoughts against it. perhaps we could have a discussion before executing such an extreme means, or compile some alternative ideas to trial first before doing this? Guest accounts are a valuable way for a person to seek help easily and feel safe/anonymous but there are some people abusing it and crossing the line very far on the guest accounts. I think it would be best to open up rooms for discussing or anyone that would like to express their thoughts/views/or have alternatives to post them here :)
@laura
Personally I think that member registration should be paired with listener identity verification.
Reasons - it will help the member to feel more secure when registering, to know that the 7cups administration actually knows who the listener is.
It will certainly put off casual trolls, if there is such a thing.
When you see a therapist in the normal course of events, you are bound to have to disclose your personal details to them.
Tbh I think that some trust is required to benefit from this site, and what we are promising - well-meaning listeners - we haven't really nailed down yet. One of the members I've been working with described what sounded like narcissistic behaviour from another listener to me - ok that's not definite, but tbh I would have had more to work with if I knew it was really unlikely. Perhaps the verified listener badge could mean just that?
@DavidEss
Probabl is a thing.
If listener identities will be verified, I'm leaving.
(They should not be verified except for atl listeners)
@IntrovertedDreamer73409
**Privacy
@IntrovertedDreamer73409 I agree. Listeners are volunteers, we don't get payed for sacrificing our personal lifes and safety.
We shared enough about ourselves, our data can be used for scientific purposes. It's written in the terms of service.
If there was an obligation to reveal my identity I would leave.
For the ATL site, I think it's a good idea.
@IntrovertedDreamer73409
My mental health is more important than your privacy. Identifying volunteers is a routine feature of most modern day volunteering organizations and opprotunity.
Bye I guess, but I would whole heartedly endorse some sort of background checks for listeners.
@DaveTheDogisBestDog I understand your argument. Yes your mental health has higher priority for you than a listeners privacy.
Do you think members should undergo a background check too, since I believe listeners mental health is important too.
@DavidEss
The verified listener badge doesn't mean that your identity has been verified it just means that your listening skills have met the criteria for acceptable level of active listening skills to receive the verified listener badge. So the verified badge means your skills have been verfied but it doesn't mean that your identity has
So it really doesn't mean more than a skilled listener verified your ability to handle a mock chat scenario
It's still an important part of listening and growing your personal listening skills. it's important to remember that listeners are volunteers and not trained experts
Each listener is a human being volunteering their time to help strangers and everyone starts off at different skill levels - like any sport or activity
The only time a listener's identity is verified is when adults apply to be adult teen listeners - other than that it's a completely anonymous site for members & listeners
@summertimeSamness
For the sake of clarity, I think it should. It isn't just teens who are vulnerable to abuse.
If I were a new member to the site I would probably assume that Verified Listener meant that their identity was checked out. You can tell a lot from a mock chat, but it is the guarantee that would be important to a vulnerable new member.
@DavidEss
Verified listener on the teen side means the same as it does on the adult side - it only means listening skills verfied not identity verified
ATL or adult teen listener is the badge that represents identity verification for adults and it's because teen side can only be members 13 - 17 years old and teen listeners can only be 15 - 17 years old so that's why any adult who wants access to the teen side has to go through the ATL application process
Adult members and teen members can pm listeners who have the ATL badge as well if they want support - just because a listener has their identity verified with application doesn't mean they are safe. I've had to report adult teen listeners who violate the guidelines for atl that's why if you see something, you must say something and report it
hope this will help keeping us all safer on 7cups
Ive decided to write another response after having slept on this idea- this will be long, but please bear with me (tl;dr at the end)
I first joined 7cups 3 years ago in October 2015. I joined as a guest, and after a few days made a member account. I was very scared to get help, and having the sheer anonymity as a guest really benefited me to take that step.
In the 3 years since 7cups has helped me immeasurably. I dont think that if I wasnt able to try it as a guest first I would be here today.
But. And this is a big but. In my nearly 3 years as a listener, I must have had hundreds of guest accounts harassing me. From sexual advances, to literal stalkers, to people threatening to kill me, Ive had it all. And this all reached a head earlier this year, as many of you know, and that incident lead to guests being banned from group rooms, which has since reduced trolling in teen side rooms significantly.
I dont know if the sheer banning of guests was the main catalyst though. I feel as though much of that growth was the result of the banning of the people involved, including listener accounts. Removing guilty people from the site helped, undoubtedly.
Trolls will always get through. During all of this, the person ended up creating many member accounts to harass me as well. Member accounts can be farmed easily. We wont stop them just by removing guests.
There wont be a single fix. Many people in this thread have come up with great ideas. I feel the simplest may be banning VPN usage, so we can accurately track IPs, but this would face uproar. I also loved @affyavos idea of aliases- to allow anonymity but keep everything connected to the one member account. Trolls will still come back though. Nothing can stop multi accounting, its always been an issue and it wont stop.
People need to be prepared on dealing with trolls- more training. We have been BEGGING for more listener trainings for years, and nothing has happened. We need it more now than ever.
Over the last 3 years Ive given so much time and energy to this site, having lead over 100 discussions, created a support team and forum team, moderated rooms, and helped nearly 1500 members and guests. If the guest account function hadnt existed, I likely wouldnt be here. Removing it would mean some people wouldnt come, they wouldnt be here.
To summarise. Do not remove the function entirely. Seriously.
Tl;dr as promised- I was harassed by people on guest accounts who later used member accounts, we cant trolling it entirely, we just need to be better at dealing with trolls.
@Lucy Thanks for all the hard work you did for 3 years. I can relate to your experience, I started as a guest too. :) Thanks for joining, you would have been missed!
@Lucy This is a good post yes- it's not all sunshines and rainbows after removing guest accounts- there will still be troubles. Is it worth doing such an extreme measure? How would this what this site looks like in the future and people that need help? Many people are writing long posts and opinions about this... I hope these posts aren't lost in oblivion and are properly appraised and considered by executing parties before such an extreme measure is done. I personally think this matter should be open for discussion in discussion rooms or a vote should be cast to decide this given its magnitude; to prevent actions from becoming tyrannical, dictatorial and inconsiderate of all our hardworking listeners and people members and guests alike that actually will need help.
@Lucy
Seconded.
@Lucy
Seconded. I started as a guest too
I slept on it too, and my initial very negative reaction to it is still how I feel about it. It's like an example straight out of a sociology textbook of a community making an out-group the scapegoat for its internal troubles.
Like you, @Lucy , I got to thinking about training, and the resistance there seems to be to better training at 7 Cups. My reaction to that has been to write some training guides myself, and I'm now planning for my next one to be on trolls. I aim to cover all the issues that have been brought up in this thread. Anyone who has additional ideas for what it should cover is welcome to message me, (although I'm on a break until next week because of poor Internet connectivity, and I might not be able to reply quickly).
@Lucy
@Lucy
I agree. Most people start out as guests when they want complete anonymity and aren't sure about making a commitment to the site through a member account. Trolls exist in member and listener format, too. We shouldn't block out guest accounts entirely just to get rid of trolls
Please make sure you provide crisis information on the page where you ask guests to create member accounts. I imagine there will be people who would require urgent help or someone to talk to when they are having panic attacks.
Sucks to see that the decision was seemingly already made.
I think there should be some form of identification to prevent trolls, but guest accounts shouldn't be eradicated. I found this site looking through online help searches, and started off as a guest account. This site has helped me more than a lot of people in my life, unfortunately. Getting rid of these guest accounts means people will be denied the same opportunity I had, to get help.
My opinion, let people sign up as guests but give them a 7-day trial to see if they like the site. They need to sign up with their email address after the 7 days if they feel like this community is for them. If they are just out to cause harm for other individuals we make sure we flag their comments as abusive and they probably shouldn't be allowed to join. Obviously keeping this as a safe space for people who are struggling and need support. I am a reader more than a commenter and that is mainly due to fear (of which I have many). Being a listener and putting up with abuse of any kind from an anonymous stranger sounds terrifying to me, For me personally, I think they did an amazing job with Noni, that's who I go to.
@Laura
Adding to my suggestion of not allowing guests to leave reviews, maybe another pretty simple thing to do is to not allow guests to personally request a listener? if they can only use the GR queue then it is going to help stop targeted bullying?
@MistyMagic
Agreed, why not just remove PRs?
@MistyMagic- that
A lot of you are defining anonymity incorrectly. Anonymity is protecting your actual, real-life identity. It's not saying, "No one on this web site will be familiar with your user name and interests."
@ThisIs543 Where "interests" = things you have previously said or done on this site.
Deleted by kindsoul10 for avoiding double post.
@ThisIs543 that's not correct. Are you referring to pseudonymity?
Definition of anonymous
1: of unknown authorship or originan anonymous tip
2: not named or identifiedan anonymous authorThey wish to remain anonymous.
3: lacking individuality, distinction, or recognizabilitythe anonymous faces in the crowd… the gray anonymous streets …— William Styron
Source: Merriam Webster Dictionary
Recommended articles: Wikipedia
Quote: The important idea here is that a person be non-identifiable, unreachable, or untrackable.[1] Anonymity is seen as a technique, or a way of realizing, a certain other values, such as privacy, or liberty.
[1] Wallace, Kathleen A (1999). "Anonymity".Ethics and Information Technology. 1: 23–35.;Nissenbaum, Helen (1999). "The Meaning of Anonymity in an Information Age". The Information Society. 15: 141–44.; Matthews, Steve (2010). "Anonymity and the Social Self". American Philosophical Quarterly. 47: 351–63.
@ThisIs543 I have a rare disorder that presents differently from most who have it. There are more details that are shared here about myself. If people who know me in real life come onto the site, I am easily recognizeable.
People share stories about experiences they have been through. Those details are likely pretty unique. Little things like that can make others recognizeable.
@AffyAvo
Seconded.
I have had similar experiences.
I agree with those who say that 7cups shouldn't remove guest accounts. An idea for an alternative: those who just want to try the site could request a one-day guest account. They would be asked to enter their email addresses, then get an email containing a link, where they could access the one-day account. It would be very similar to member accounts, but with a few differences:
No user name needed
Can be used for a limited time only
Maybe limited use of the site
If the guest turns out to be a troll, then their email would be added to a list, so they can't request a guest account later.
